BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI

[Nautilus]

Originally Posted by roGan

Skoda Octavia RS TDI e aproape VARF de gama la Skoda, pe cand umilul 320D este aproape cel mai ieftin BMW pe piata

Fals. Cel mai ieftin BMW e 116i, iar din Seria 3 318i, 320i, 318d sunt sub pretul lui 320d

~Nautilus

[a3ds]

Originally Posted by torquemaster

Dieselul lui vw cu 1l / 1000km consum "NORMAL" de ulei in viziunea vw , tehnologie apusa pompe "duse" cu probleme generale la volanta ****

Tehnologia aia apusa e o tehnologie mai buna decat common rail dar s-a renuntat la ea din motive de costuri de productie, nu de superioritate a common railului care e mai primitiv ca tehnologie.

Orice poseseor de PD care a trecut la common rail poate sa confirme, also common railurile sunt mult mai sensibile la motorina proasta de la noi prin constructie.

Eu as alege Octavia, e o masina mai cinstita ca pret vs performanta si mai adaptata la viata de zi cu zi din .ro aka drumuri de rahat.

[UNLORD]

Originally Posted by Nautilus

Fals. Cel mai ieftin BMW e 116i, iar din Seria 3 318i, 320i, 318d sunt sub pretul lui 320d

~Nautilus

Exista si 316 i si 316 d ... cum exista si Octavia 1.4 si cum exista si 335 d sau M3 ...

[UNLORD]

Originally Posted by a3ds

Orice poseseor de PD care a trecut la common rail poate sa confirme, also common railurile sunt mult mai sensibile la motorina proasta de la noi prin constructie.

Pai asta e problema VAG-ului, care a cam pierdut trenul, si asta din incapatanarea de a pastra atata timp fumegatoarele si rontaitoarele si destul de putin fiabilele PD-uri (am avut vreo 4 masini la firma). Iar daca ce spui tu este adevarat (cu noii proprietari de VAG-uri CR ) asta ma face sa ii compatisesc si mai tare!

Singurul avantaj in opinia mea al PD-ului a fost ca se preteaza mai bine la tuning...

[The_Mask]

Originally Posted by UNLORD

Pai asta e problema VAG-ului, care a cam pierdut trenul, si asta din incapatanarea de a pastra atata timp fumegatoarele si rontaitoarele si destul de putin fiabilele PD-uri (am avut vreo 4 masini la firma). Iar daca ce spui tu este adevarat (cu noii proprietari de VAG-uri CR ) asta ma face sa ii compatisesc si mai tare!

Singurul avantaj in opinia mea al PD-ului a fost ca se preteaza mai bine la tuning...

Unlord sti ca problema cu fiabiltatea e discutabila. Uite spre exemplu eu nu am avut nici o problema cu al meu PD desi a fost atat criticat 2.0TDI ca mananca ulei, cei drept da consuma pana la 1l la schimba insa de 15 mii nu am mai completat. Sunt cazuri si cazuri.

Referitor la versus, 320D are un motor foarte bun silentios cu destula putere insa la design nu-mi place, nu pot sa ma impac cu acest lucru.

[GTR]

Originally Posted by a3ds

Tehnologia aia apusa e o tehnologie mai buna decat common rail dar s-a renuntat la ea din motive de costuri de productie, nu de superioritate a common railului care e mai primitiv ca tehnologie.

Orice poseseor de PD care a trecut la common rail poate sa confirme, also common railurile sunt mult mai sensibile la motorina proasta de la noi prin constructie.

Eu as alege Octavia, e o masina mai cinstita ca pret vs performanta si mai adaptata la viata de zi cu zi din .ro aka drumuri de rahat.

1.Pumpe Düse -Unit Injector systems were commonly associated as Detroit Diesel Allison fuel systems, however in 1911 a patent was issued in Great Britain for a unit injector resembling those in use today to Frederick Lamplough.

Common Rail - The common rail system prototype was developed in the late 1960s by Robert Huber of Switzerland[1] and the technology further developed by Dr. Marco Ganser at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, later of Ganser-Hydromag AG (est.1995) in Oberägeri.

Deci tehnologia Common Rail este doar cu 49 de ani mai noua.


2.Common Rail
- the higher pressure that the common rail technology makes available provides better fuel atomisation
-In order to lower engine noise the engine's electronic control unit can inject a small amount of diesel just before the main injection event ("pilot" injection), thus reducing its explosiveness and vibration, as well as optimising injection timing and quantity for variations in fuel quality, cold starting, and so on.
-Common rail engines require no heating up time[citation needed] and produce lower engine noise and emissions than older systems


Pumpe Düse
-it doesn't allow as accurate injection timing and amount control as piezo-electric injector used on modern commonrail injection systems.


Sigur este mai performant si mai nou Pumpe Düse, nu? )

[bluey]

Octavia rs tdi are injectoare piezoelectrice
Trebuia sa gasesti altceva de care sa te legi.

[a3ds]

GTR, ca de obicei ai uitat sa spui chestii esentiale gen :

Design of the unit injector eliminates the need for high pressure fuel pipes, and with that their associated failures, as well as allowing for much higher injection pressure to occur. However, it doesn't allow as accurate injection timing and amount control as piezo-electric injector used on modern commonrail injection systems. (asta e la PD, adica e un motor mai fiabil chit ca nu e asa "precis" ca timpi de injectie desi daca ai pune injectoare piezo pe common rail s-ar rezolva si problema asta dar asta e trendul acum, common rail,mai putin poluant si mai silentios).

also

Each injector has its own pumping element, and in the case of electronic control, a fuel solenoid valve as well. The fuel system is divided into the low pressure (<500 kPa) fuel supply system, and the high pressure injection system (<2000 bar)

Common rail systems require numerous high pressure connections and consistent high pressure. Unit injectors presumably generate intermittent high pressure running off the camshaft and one connection per injector unit requiring the high pressure seal.

Common rail has other advantages presently, but it seems fairly likely the engineering challenges will be met with unit injector systems over time and cost of unit injector systems is likely to be lower over time due to scale economies in manufacturing.

Unit injectors have the clear advantage of redundancy improving reliability. A common rail pressure failure will bring the engine down. A unit injector pressure failure will bring one cylinder down.

Certainly I was impressed by the lack of usual diesel engine noise in the common rail Tiguan diesel.

PD deci,spre deosebire de common rail, are pompe de injectie separate pe fiecare injector, ghici care e mai fiabil? La PD daca iti pica o pompa de injectie mergi in 3 cilindri sau 5, whatever, la common rail orice furtun, nu mai zic de pompa de injectie e engine failure, ai ramas acolo.


S-a renuntat la PD nu pentru ca nu ar fi un motor excelent ci pentru ca e o tehnologie mai poluanta si mai costisitor de fabricat, e mai complex motorul decat la common rail,mai zgomotos si mai poluant. Deasemenea, produce mai mult cuplu la turatii joase decat un CR,esential pentru diesel.

Eu nu am zis niciodata ca e mai noua tehnlogia PD,ai obiceiul asta tampit sa atribui oamenilor chestii pe care nu le-au spus ca sa ai cum sa combati cu citate care iti convin tie dar uiti intregul si anume ca nu o chestie de victorie personala ci de acuratete. Si nu intotdeauna solutiile tehnologice moderne produc over all o masina mai buna, de asta se spune ca masinile noi nu mai sunt la fel de reliable ca cele vechi, prea complicate, prea multa tehnologie inutila, ma rog, dam in altele.

[GTR]

Originally Posted by a3ds

GTR, ca de obicei ai uitat sa spui chestii esentiale gen :

Design of the unit injector eliminates the need for high pressure fuel pipes, and with that their associated failures, as well as allowing for much higher injection pressure to occur. However, it doesn't allow as accurate injection timing and amount control as piezo-electric injector used on modern commonrail injection systems. (asta e la PD, adica e un motor mai fiabil chit ca nu e asa "precis" ca timpi de injectie desi daca ai pune injectoare piezo pe common rail s-ar rezolva si problema asta dar asta e trendul acum, common rail,mai putin poluant si mai silentios).

also

Each injector has its own pumping element, and in the case of electronic control, a fuel solenoid valve as well. The fuel system is divided into the low pressure (<500 kPa) fuel supply system, and the high pressure injection system (<2000 bar)

Common rail systems require numerous high pressure connections and consistent high pressure. Unit injectors presumably generate intermittent high pressure running off the camshaft and one connection per injector unit requiring the high pressure seal.

Common rail has other advantages presently, but it seems fairly likely the engineering challenges will be met with unit injector systems over time and cost of unit injector systems is likely to be lower over time due to scale economies in manufacturing.

Unit injectors have the clear advantage of redundancy improving reliability. A common rail pressure failure will bring the engine down. A unit injector pressure failure will bring one cylinder down.

Certainly I was impressed by the lack of usual diesel engine noise in the common rail Tiguan diesel.

PD deci,spre deosebire de common rail, are pompe de injectie separate pe fiecare injector, ghici care e mai fiabil? La PD daca iti pica o pompa de injectie mergi in 3 cilindri sau 5, whatever, la common rail orice furtun, nu mai zic de pompa de injectie e engine failure, ai ramas acolo.


S-a renuntat la PD nu pentru ca nu ar fi un motor excelent ci pentru ca e o tehnologie mai poluanta si mai costisitor de fabricat, e mai complex motorul decat la common rail,mai zgomotos si mai poluant. Deasemenea, produce mai mult cuplu la turatii joase decat un CR,esential pentru diesel.

Eu nu am zis niciodata ca e mai noua tehnlogia PD,ai obiceiul asta tampit sa atribui oamenilor chestii pe care nu le-au spus ca sa ai cum sa combati cu citate care iti convin tie dar uiti intregul si anume ca nu o chestie de victorie personala ci de acuratete. Si nu intotdeauna solutiile tehnologice moderne produc over all o masina mai buna, de asta se spune ca masinile noi nu mai sunt la fel de reliable ca cele vechi, prea complicate, prea multa tehnologie inutila, ma rog, dam in altele.

"Eu nu am zis niciodata ca e mai noua tehnlogia PD"
"nu de superioritate a common railului care e mai primitiv ca tehnologie."

Third-generation common rail diesels now feature piezoelectric injectors for increased precision, with fuel pressures up to 1,800 bars (26,000 psi).

+ daca iau exemplul tau, mai bine am 1 pompa de injectie in loc de 4 sau 6 etc.
Common rail nu ai furtun ca nu poti sa ti cu furtun 1,800 bars.
Common rail nu se strica la fiecare 20 de mii de km decat daca bagi motorina de la camioane sau statii anonime, sunt motoare care au trecut de 200 mii de km fara probleme de pompa.
Daca luam avantajele si dezavantajele celor 2 tehnologii common rail castiga detasat.
cuplu la turatii joase este dat de sistemul tubo.

Originally Posted by bluey

Octavia rs tdi are injectoare piezoelectrice
Trebuia sa gasesti altceva de care sa te legi.

Third-generation common rail diesels now feature piezoelectric injectors for increased precision, with fuel pressures up to 1,800 bars (26,000 psi).
Ala este un sistem de comanda al injectorului nu are legatura cu sistemele si unul si altul au injectoare doar ca la cr lucreaza la presiune ami mare, mai invata.

[carutasu]

Originally Posted by bluey

Octavia rs tdi are injectoare piezoelectrice
Trebuia sa gasesti altceva de care sa te legi.

e pe PD.

Sincer nu m-am documentat special pentru Octavia, nu a fost chiar genul de masina care m-a interesat vreodata, dar tin minte ca am fost cu un prieten la reprezentanta Skoda cand isi cauta masina.Nu stia inca exact ce vrea, optiunile erau Octavia RS TDI, Skoda Superb, Passat sau, pe urma de fapt...a intrat si Mondeo in lista.Acolo era o Octavia RS.Ne-am uitat la ea si chiar l-am intrebat pe dealer daca e pe common-rail sau pe PD si mi-a spus ca e Pumpe-Duse.Acuma nu cred ca nu stia ala ce vinde.

[bluey]

Pumpe-Duse piezoelectric.
Crede-ma pe cuvant daca nu vrei sa pierzi timpul cautand.
ECU Siemens.

[GTR]

Originally Posted by bluey

Pumpe-Duse piezoelectric.
Crede-ma pe cuvant daca nu vrei sa pierzi timpul cautand.
ECU Siemens.

Third-generation common rail diesels now feature piezoelectric injectors for increased precision, with fuel pressures up to 1,800 bars (26,000 psi).
Ala este un sistem de comanda al injectorului nu are legatura cu sistemele si unul si altul au injectoare doar ca la c r lucreaza la presiune mai mare, mai invata.

[bluey]

1800Bar<3000Bar dupa matematica pe care am invatat-o eu.
Pe asta cu "si unul si altul au injectoare" nu am inteles-o, probabil esti prea profund pentru mine.
Intr-adevar sunt injectoare pumpe-duse piezo si dupa cum stii bine din functionarea injectorului PD comanda poate fi facuta printr-un solenoid (bobina) sau piezoelectric cum are si ceasul tau de mana cand suna alarma
Si da presiunea in pompa din interiorul injectorului ajunge la 3000Bar in timpul injectiei principale desi injectia se face tot la aproximativ 2000bar.
Simplu nu?
Citez dintr-un manual cu detalii despre functionarea motorului PD:
"

Main Injection Phase Starts

The pressure in the high-pressure
chamber rises again shortly after the
injector needle closes.
The pump/injector solenoid valve
remains closed and the pump piston
moves downward.
At approximately 4,351 psi (30,000 kPa /
300 bar), the fuel pressure is greater
than the force exerted by the pre-loaded
injector spring.
The injector needle is again lifted from
its seat and the main injection quantity
is injected.
The pressure rises to between 27,121 psi
(187,000 kPa / 1,870 bar) and 27,846 psi
(192,000 kPa / 1,920 bar) because more
fuel is displaced in the high-pressure
chamber than can escape through the
nozzle holes.
Maximum fuel pressure is achieved at
maximum engine output. This occurs at
high engine speed when a large quantity
fuel is being injected."

[a3ds]

bluey, pierzi timpu cu omu', e autist.

[bluey]

Intr-adevar CR are avantajele sale peste PD , zgomot mai mic, noxe mai putine, pret mai mic, dar asta nu este un topic PD vs CR.
Eu as alege Octavia pentru pret.
De restul banilor o sui in 350Cp