CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT, de 220cp de fabrică,

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Incepusem sa ma indoiesc ca se pot scoate atat de multi cai in plus la motoare turbo benzina doar din soft. Felicitari lui Ginel pentru soft, arata bine graficul si probabil pe strada masina merge foarte bine.

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

nu vreau sa fiu carcotas, dar 70 de cai pierdere? si masina nu mai are nimic modificat? intercooler, evacuare?

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Asa e si la golful 3 tdi de bv ... putere destul de mare si pierdere de aprox 70 de cai , nici eu nu inteleg cum se calculeaza pierderile acolo.

https://forum.4tuning.ro/attachment.p...6&d=1318536448

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

masina are doar soft,intercoolerul stock,filtru stock,cum ar zice alti tuneri stage 1.oricum asa doar cu soft a reusit sa fie pe 400m in fata unui seat cupra stage 3+(sau stage 3++ sau 3+++,k nu mai stiu cum au baietii astia stage urile) cu soft revo considerat a avea 365cp...

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Permite-mi te rog sa fac o mica corectie!
Cupra nu e nici pe departe STG3 sau 3+ si nici nu a fost masurata momentan, ci un STAGE 2+ avand pompa de inalte inlocuita cu una APR.
De cand a fost finalizata in stadiul actual, a fost "menajata" datorita unor probleme de ambreiaj, masina facand doar 3 curse din ce am eu cunostinta.
Cu siguranta va veti mai intalni cand proprietarul se va reintoarce in tara si cand vei mai rezolva si tu problemele la masina.

A fost o cursa intre voi doi pe care ai castigat-o (nu stiu cu cat si nici nu conteaza). Insa, cred ca ar fi mai important un timp oficial decat o cursa clasica daca tintesti performanta.

Desi departe de mine gandul de a isca noi controverse, te rog sa nu te abati de la topicul initial de prezentare a unui proiect, cunoscuta fiind inversunarea ta impotriva celor cu soft Revo. Topicul de rovocari este in alta parte!

O zi buna sa ai!

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Cateva explicatii interesante gasite pe net:

maha (Maschinenbau Haldenwang) dynos. Ferrari 308/328 powertrain loss calculated

I mentioned this type of dyno on another thread, and it seems no one has ever heard of this type of dyno,. These things are quite amazing. I recently discovered them and amazingly, there is a Mondial with a 3.2 engine sheet I managed to locate.

These dynos are the result of Audi, Porsche, BMW, Mercedes needing something surgically accurate that has the ability to measure wheel bhp, calculate drivetrain loss, and yield flywheel bhp. These are the only dynos specifically recommended and used by any manufacturer.

Last time I checked, there were only two or three of these things in the US. What I like about these is they really put to bed any conjecture about power loss through the drivetrain. As I have being reading up on these, it appears all drivetrains lose bhp through the drivetrain not as a flat %, but as a bhp figure at a certain rpm. So for an engine making say 300bhp at 7200rpm, the power loss is different than what it might be losing at 7000rpm. From what I have been reading, peak bhp power losses are always greater than what we believe them to be. 22%-30% is not uncommon where peak power is made. Also, these dyno runs take a good 45-50 seconds as the dyno loads the car differently to calculate losses etc. Very interesting stuff. If anyone is curious, these are rumored to read less than a dynojet at the wheels and about the same (within a couple bhp) or a tiny bit more depending on the car than a Mustang dyno at the wheels.

Here is a 3.2L '88 Mondial dyno sheet with a Tubi. This car appears to be a bit out of tune as max power is made at only 5700rpm. But look at the power train loss! 22% at peak power. Huge, but very typical. We can see what power loss is at where peak power should be though.

Note the green line at the bottom end of the dyno sheet. This line represents drag as rpm increases. Begins at 10bhp lost at 1500rpm, then 20bhp at 3000rpm, 35bhp @ 4500rpm, and proceeds very linear to about 51bhp lost at 6000rpm. Although it is not shown, I can conjecture about 67bhp lost a 7500rpm due to the very linear pattern. So if you are making 185bhp on a Mustang dyno at 6600rpm, it is safe to say you are losing about 60bhp through the drivetrain meaning one has 245bhp at the flywheel with a % loss of a stout 24.5%.

If you have a dynojet sheet from a pull with your engine, I suggest reducing the dynojet figure by what I have figured to be about a 7% difference compared to Mustang dynos (my car made 200 on dynojet yet 185 on a Mustang), take that figure and the rpm in which your peak bhp was made, and add the drivetrain bhp loss according to your rpm from what we know to be drivetrain loss and there is your flywheel bhp.

The great mystery is solved


Altceva bun de citit:

How to read a MAHA dyno sheet

First thing we learned about using the MaHa lps 3000
Is… forgetting everything you learned about all other wheel power calculating dynos. This is what we had to do, Joe and I have been using other dynos for years to tune and test cars and we put up some resistance at first until we unlearned what we had gotten so used to.

Other dynos can only give you wheel power #s. and this is ok if all your going to do Is look for the gain from a modification compared to stock, and you don’t need or care to know what the real power is. The wheel numbers are completely arbitrary.

One of the most common miscalculations in determining horse power was guessing the drive train loss.
Most people think that there car has a certain percentage of drive train loss, in fact drive train loss is not one set percentage its multiplication, the most common example is a person that has had there car dynoed at a shop with a DynoDynamics or a Dynojet or other simalar, will say something like… my car dynoed at 280 whp and the dyno operator told me my car is approximately 25% drive train loss, so my car must have 350hp at the crank.
First question we usually ask is At what RPM. if your peak HP is at 5000 RPM then you drive train loss is much less than it is at 7000RPM so for example lets say your drive train loss is 65 hp at 5000 rpm and it is 80 at 7000RPM then you have to know what the loss is at the exact RPM that you are making your max HP, or your #s are again completely arbitrary. And with all the different wheels brakes, light weight drive lines, even tires,,.. with out the ability to dyno you driveling you have no way of knowing what your real Hp # is.
This is why we have no question about high or low reading dyno we can always throw a stock car on and compare it to the factory SAE #s
A stock e46 M3 will put between 332 and 334 crank horse power on the MaHa dyno all day, factory #s 333.0 Hp, YES its that accurate.

We always knew that drive train loss increased with rpm but we didn’t realize it was on such a curve and the difference from one model to another is surprising. It’s also nice to see the difference between a AWD and 2WD for losses. On the MAHA you can actually watch the drive train being calculated just like you would watch the horse power line It just runs from right to left and on all wheel drive cars you get to watch 2 lines one for the front and one for the rear, then it adds the front and rear together to calculate your total drive train loss at all rpm. This really helps us with diagnostics as well as tuning. Center diff going bad? This should let us know.
We can also shift tractive effort from front to rear, other dynos such as the DynoDynamics can give you a general reading of tractive effort, but we can actual control it, what dose this mean, well any one that has a R32 or a TT will most likely find that on most dynos you have a stumble where the Halidex is trying to transfer power front to rear ( some shops just unplug the unit and run it in FWD) some times you can get a full pull but even if you do a sloppy power line is the result and it makes it almost impossible to see a accurate power result, not to mention its murder on you cars drivetrain. Well thanks to Audi this is not a problem (and no the rollers are not connected) Audi needed a way to test there new AWD systems a few years and in early development they contracted MAHA to develop a way to combat this issue when dyno testing was needed, MAHA did there homework and the result trickled down to the LPS3000. This is one of the benefits of having a dynamometer from the same manufacture that provides dynos and test equipment for most of the major manufactures, Audi/Volkswagen, Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, and on and on all have MaHa dynos in there facilities chances are if you have a car out of Germany it already been on a MAHA. In short the dynos software allows us run a primarily front wheel drive car with rear wheel drive assist by changing effort from rear to front, and this also works for AWD Porches that are primarily rear drive with front assist, by transferring front to rear. That goes the same for skylines especially the R34 where the front diff can’t ever fully disengage. And most other vehicles with computer controlled drivelines. ,, WOW didn’t mean to ramble on like that.

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

desi pierderile sunt cam ciudate, in cazul asta felicitari. poate o sa trec si eu pe la voi, pt un 200sx CA18DET

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Nu vreau sa fiu Off Topic dar te sfatuiesc sa o faci. Baieti de nota 10++, din toate punctele de vedere.

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Hehe , asta nici nu mai incape indoiala , mai ales pe partea de diesel.

Oricum multumesc frumos pentru explicatii , eu doar ma miram ca o masina fwd poate avea atat de multe pierderi. pe alte dynouri vedeam undeva la 30-50 max.

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Pierderile in transmisie oricum sunt influetate de prea multi factori ca sa le "stim".Temperatura cauciucurilor, presiunea lor,marimea talonului, greutatea discurilor de frana,uleiul din cutia de viteze, uzura pinioanelor, diferentialul (blocant sau nu) sunt factori care se adauga acelora pe care ii stim cu totii :fwd,rwd,awd .
De aia exista tuning si dincolo de cai putere si greutate :D

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Ideea e ca dyno arata fidel sau cel mult e un pic pesimist.Mai sunt firme de tuning in Romania care detin dyno si sunt cam "optimisti", ca sa nu spun altfel. E un dyno sincer si pe bune, graficul relevat este interesant, softul e mega optimizat si cum spunea si bluey, pierdere in transmisie sunt explicabile avand ca si cauze foarte multi factori.

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Asa prefer si eu , mai bine un dyno putin pesimist decat unul euforic :))))

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

cum inteleg eu treaba cu dyno e in felul urmator: de masurat se masoara cu ce forta sunt invartite acele role, care in functie de turatie sau viteza , se creste forta cu care acestea se opun fortei rotilor, deci implicit se calculeaza puterea la roti, si cu o formula de calcul, se stabileste puterea la volanta. zic eu, ca oricum asta e si cea mai importanta...

acum intrebarea mea: nu se poate pune o fisa dyno cu masina inainte de soft?

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Din pacate nu am facut o masuratoare inainte de modificare, nu ne interesa asta, stiam cat are masina stock, era in mintile ei. Nici nu ne-am dorit a fi expusa fisa dyno pe forum, dar, deh, s-a intamplat:evil:. Si-acum trebuie sa dau cu subsemnatul.:-) Pe viitor o sa fiu mai atent:-)

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

De ce nu ? Sa vada si altii de ce sunteti capabili ca firma , eu ma bucur cand vad astfel de actiuni pe forum , ca asa putem trage si noi o concluzie.

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Si cate mai sant... pe care le tii ascunse. Felicitari inca o data pentru dovezile de profesionalism care te "incrimineaza".

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

E ok 70cp pierdere pt tractiune fata.. Cam pe aici sunt pierderile normale pt o tractiune fata...

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Eu stiam ca pierderile le masori in procente nu in numar de cai...

Ca poti sa ai 700 cai si sa pierzi 70 cai adica 10% si poti sa ai 140 cai si sa pierzi 70 , deci pierdere de 50% ;)

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Ma refeream in cazul de vata..de ex la mine 306cp motor, 245roata.. Dupa x modificari..421 motor, 360 roata..s-a pastrat oarecum diferenta chiar daca a crescut puterea.. E ok oricum, cred.. Poate ma insel.. A fost doar o parere.. Clar Kimi ai dreptate in ceea ce spui.. Asa e logic..

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Pierderile se masoara strict in cai putere. Frecarile in transmisie, roti etc sunt aceleasi indiferent de puterea la volanta. Prin urmare este ilogic sa calculezi in procente. Cresti puterea la volanta scade procentul de pierderi in transmisie :D. Eu am avut cam aceleasi pierderi si la 140 cp si la 280 cp asa ca......

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Pai vad ca tot de procente vorbesti si tu Doctores:lol:

Normal ca aveai aceleasi pierderi, dar in procente..Si dupa aceea faceai calculul si transformai in cai... RATONULE :hug:

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Poti sa calculezi in ce vrei tu, procente, kw, cp, martoage putere, rezultatul este tot ala. Ideea e ca procentul nu este o varianta tocmai corecta. Nu poti generaliza spunand ca tractiunea fata pierde X procente si tractiunea spate pierde Y procente. Dar poti spune ca o tractiune fata pierde in medie 50-70 cp
Nasosule
P.S. Rade ciob de o oala sparta :D

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Asta inseamna ca un Logan de 65cp nu exista pentru ca puterea lui este anulata de pierderile din transmisie???? Sau da cu -5cp? :D

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Daca cauti cu atentie graficele cu loganul de 65 cp o sa observi ca are pierderi de ~ 40 cp. E normal sa piarda mai putin...roti mai mici, masina mai usoara, planetare mai subtiri alte pinioane in cutie, alta volanta, alte discuri de frana etc. Dar banuiesc ca nu tre sa-ti spun eu toate astea tie. Sau ai aplicat la TOATE masinile valorile date de mine.

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Ca sa incheiem dezmatul pe topicul oamenilor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_layout

The possibility of a slight loss in the mechanical efficiency of the drivetrain (approximately 17% coastdown losses between engine flywheel and road wheels compared to 15% for front wheel drive — however these losses are highly dependent on the individual transmission).[citation needed] Cars with rear engine or mid engine configuration and a transverse engine layout do not suffer from this.

O lectura foarte interesanta este si asta :
http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-10...s/viewall.html

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Unde scrie destul de clar (pt. mine), ca este total gresit a se considera pierderea ca fiind un procent fix sau o valoare data. Fiecare tip de transmisie are pierderea ei si nu se poate generaliza.

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

Bineinteles.
Nici un om normal la cap nu ar pune o cifra exacta acolo, dupa cum am scris si pe topicul lui Ovidiu.Sunt prea multi factori care influenteaza pierderile.Dar asta inseamna ca la fel cum pot creste, pot sa si scada. Dar deja suntem in alta zona a tuningului.
Spor la treaba tuturor :)

Re: CHIPTUNING POWERTECH PE FIAT COUPE 2.0L 20VT
 

unul dintre cele mai puternice/rapide 1.8t&2.0 fsi, tfsi...
bravo baieti chiar faceti lucruri deosebite.