Re: BMW 320D 177 CP VERSUS OCTAVIA RS TDI
 

1.Pumpe Düse -Unit Injector systems were commonly associated as Detroit Diesel Allison fuel systems, however in 1911 a patent was issued in Great Britain for a unit injector resembling those in use today to Frederick Lamplough.

Common Rail - The common rail system prototype was developed in the late 1960s by Robert Huber of Switzerland[1] and the technology further developed by Dr. Marco Ganser at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, later of Ganser-Hydromag AG (est.1995) in Oberägeri.

Deci tehnologia Common Rail este doar cu 49 de ani mai noua.


2.Common Rail
- the higher pressure that the common rail technology makes available provides better fuel atomisation
-In order to lower engine noise the engine's electronic control unit can inject a small amount of diesel just before the main injection event ("pilot" injection), thus reducing its explosiveness and vibration, as well as optimising injection timing and quantity for variations in fuel quality, cold starting, and so on.
-Common rail engines require no heating up time[citation needed] and produce lower engine noise and emissions than older systems


Pumpe Düse
-it doesn't allow as accurate injection timing and amount control as piezo-electric injector used on modern commonrail injection systems.


Sigur este mai performant si mai nou Pumpe Düse, nu? :))

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Octavia rs tdi are injectoare piezoelectrice :)
Trebuia sa gasesti altceva de care sa te legi.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

GTR, ca de obicei ai uitat sa spui chestii esentiale gen :

Design of the unit injector eliminates the need for high pressure fuel pipes, and with that their associated failures, as well as allowing for much higher injection pressure to occur. However, it doesn't allow as accurate injection timing and amount control as piezo-electric injector used on modern commonrail injection systems. (asta e la PD, adica e un motor mai fiabil chit ca nu e asa "precis" ca timpi de injectie desi daca ai pune injectoare piezo pe common rail s-ar rezolva si problema asta dar asta e trendul acum, common rail,mai putin poluant si mai silentios).

also

Each injector has its own pumping element, and in the case of electronic control, a fuel solenoid valve as well. The fuel system is divided into the low pressure (<500 kPa) fuel supply system, and the high pressure injection system (<2000 bar)

Common rail systems require numerous high pressure connections and consistent high pressure. Unit injectors presumably generate intermittent high pressure running off the camshaft and one connection per injector unit requiring the high pressure seal.

Common rail has other advantages presently, but it seems fairly likely the engineering challenges will be met with unit injector systems over time and cost of unit injector systems is likely to be lower over time due to scale economies in manufacturing.

Unit injectors have the clear advantage of redundancy improving reliability. A common rail pressure failure will bring the engine down. A unit injector pressure failure will bring one cylinder down.

Certainly I was impressed by the lack of usual diesel engine noise in the common rail Tiguan diesel.

PD deci,spre deosebire de common rail, are pompe de injectie separate pe fiecare injector, ghici care e mai fiabil? La PD daca iti pica o pompa de injectie mergi in 3 cilindri sau 5, whatever, la common rail orice furtun, nu mai zic de pompa de injectie e engine failure, ai ramas acolo.


S-a renuntat la PD nu pentru ca nu ar fi un motor excelent ci pentru ca e o tehnologie mai poluanta si mai costisitor de fabricat, e mai complex motorul decat la common rail,mai zgomotos si mai poluant. Deasemenea, produce mai mult cuplu la turatii joase decat un CR,esential pentru diesel.

Eu nu am zis niciodata ca e mai noua tehnlogia PD,ai obiceiul asta tampit sa atribui oamenilor chestii pe care nu le-au spus ca sa ai cum sa combati cu citate care iti convin tie dar uiti intregul si anume ca nu o chestie de victorie personala ci de acuratete. Si nu intotdeauna solutiile tehnologice moderne produc over all o masina mai buna, de asta se spune ca masinile noi nu mai sunt la fel de reliable ca cele vechi, prea complicate, prea multa tehnologie inutila, ma rog, dam in altele.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

"Eu nu am zis niciodata ca e mai noua tehnlogia PD"
"nu de superioritate a common railului care e mai primitiv ca tehnologie."

Third-generation common rail diesels now feature piezoelectric injectors for increased precision, with fuel pressures up to 1,800 bars (26,000 psi).

+ daca iau exemplul tau, mai bine am 1 pompa de injectie in loc de 4 sau 6 etc.
Common rail nu ai furtun ca nu poti sa ti cu furtun 1,800 bars.
Common rail nu se strica la fiecare 20 de mii de km decat daca bagi motorina de la camioane sau statii anonime, sunt motoare care au trecut de 200 mii de km fara probleme de pompa.
Daca luam avantajele si dezavantajele celor 2 tehnologii common rail castiga detasat.
cuplu la turatii joase este dat de sistemul tubo.

Third-generation common rail diesels now feature piezoelectric injectors for increased precision, with fuel pressures up to 1,800 bars (26,000 psi).
Ala este un sistem de comanda al injectorului nu are legatura cu sistemele si unul si altul au injectoare doar ca la cr lucreaza la presiune ami mare, mai invata.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

e pe PD.

Sincer nu m-am documentat special pentru Octavia, nu a fost chiar genul de masina care m-a interesat vreodata, dar tin minte ca am fost cu un prieten la reprezentanta Skoda cand isi cauta masina.Nu stia inca exact ce vrea, optiunile erau Octavia RS TDI, Skoda Superb, Passat sau, pe urma de fapt...a intrat si Mondeo in lista.Acolo era o Octavia RS.Ne-am uitat la ea si chiar l-am intrebat pe dealer daca e pe common-rail sau pe PD si mi-a spus ca e Pumpe-Duse.Acuma nu cred ca nu stia ala ce vinde.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

:D
Pumpe-Duse piezoelectric.
Crede-ma pe cuvant daca nu vrei sa pierzi timpul cautand.
ECU Siemens.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Third-generation common rail diesels now feature piezoelectric injectors for increased precision, with fuel pressures up to 1,800 bars (26,000 psi).
Ala este un sistem de comanda al injectorului nu are legatura cu sistemele si unul si altul au injectoare doar ca la c r lucreaza la presiune mai mare, mai invata.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

1800Bar<3000Bar dupa matematica pe care am invatat-o eu.
Pe asta cu "si unul si altul au injectoare" nu am inteles-o, probabil esti prea profund pentru mine.
Intr-adevar sunt injectoare pumpe-duse piezo si dupa cum stii bine din functionarea injectorului PD comanda poate fi facuta printr-un solenoid (bobina) sau piezoelectric cum are si ceasul tau de mana cand suna alarma :)
Si da presiunea in pompa din interiorul injectorului ajunge la 3000Bar in timpul injectiei principale desi injectia se face tot la aproximativ 2000bar.
Simplu nu?
Citez dintr-un manual cu detalii despre functionarea motorului PD:
"

Main Injection Phase Starts

The pressure in the high-pressure
chamber rises again shortly after the
injector needle closes.
The pump/injector solenoid valve
remains closed and the pump piston
moves downward.
At approximately 4,351 psi (30,000 kPa /
300 bar), the fuel pressure is greater
than the force exerted by the pre-loaded
injector spring.
The injector needle is again lifted from
its seat and the main injection quantity
is injected.
The pressure rises to between 27,121 psi
(187,000 kPa / 1,870 bar) and 27,846 psi
(192,000 kPa / 1,920 bar) because more
fuel is displaced in the high-pressure
chamber than can escape through the
nozzle holes.
Maximum fuel pressure is achieved at
maximum engine output. This occurs at
high engine speed when a large quantity
fuel is being injected."

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

bluey, pierzi timpu cu omu', e autist.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Intr-adevar CR are avantajele sale peste PD , zgomot mai mic, noxe mai putine, pret mai mic, dar asta nu este un topic PD vs CR.
Eu as alege Octavia pentru pret.
De restul banilor o sui in 350Cp :D

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Indirect injection
Main article: Indirect injection

An indirect injection diesel engine delivers fuel into a chamber off the combustion chamber, called a prechamber or ante-chamber, where combustion begins and then spreads into the main combustion chamber, assisted by turbulence created in the chamber. This system allows for a smoother, quieter running engine, and because combustion is assisted by turbulence, injector pressures can be lower, about 100 bar using a single orifice tapered jet injector . Mechanical injection systems allowed high-speed running suitable for road vehicles (typically up to speeds of around 4,000 rpm). The prechamber had the disadvantage of increasing heat loss to the engine's cooling system, and restricting the combustion burn, which reduced the efficiency by 5%–10%.[21] Indirect injection engines were used in small-capacity, high-speed diesel engines in automotive, marine and construction uses from the 1950s, until direct injection technology advanced in the 1980s. Indirect injection engines are cheaper to build and it is easier to produce smooth, quiet-running vehicles with a simple mechanical system. In road-going vehicles most prefer the greater efficiency and better controlled emission levels of direct injection.

[edit] Direct injection

Modern diesel engines make use of one of the following direct injection methods:

Direct injection injectors are mounted in the top of the combustion chamber. The problem with these vehicles was the harsh noise that they made. Fuel consumption was about 15 to 20 percent lower than indirect injection diesels, which for some buyers was enough to compensate for the extra noise.

This type of engine was transformed by electronic control of the injection pump, pioneered by the Volkswagen Group in 1989. The injection pressure was still only around 300 bar (4350 psi), but the injection timing, fuel quantity, EGR and turbo boost were all electronically controlled. This gave more precise control of these parameters which made refinement more acceptable and emissions lower.

[edit] Unit direct injection
Main article: Unit Injector

Unit direct injection also injects fuel directly into the cylinder of the engine. In this system the injector and the pump are combined into one unit positioned over each cylinder controlled by the camshaft. Each cylinder has its own unit eliminating the high pressure fuel lines, achieving a more consistent injection. This type of injection system, also developed by Bosch, is used by Volkswagen AG in cars (where it is called a Pumpe-Düse-System—literally "pump-nozzle system") and by Mercedes Benz ("PLD") and most major diesel engine manufacturers in large commercial engines (CAT, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Volvo). With recent advancements, the pump pressure has been raised to 2,400 bar (35261 psi) [22], allowing injection parameters similar to common rail systems.[23]

[edit] Common rail direct injection
Main article: Common rail

In common rail systems, the separate pulsing high pressure fuel line to each cylinder injector is also eliminated. Instead, a high-pressure pump pressurises fuel at up to 2,000 bar (200 MPa, 30000 psi),[24] in a "common rail". The common rail is a tube that supplies each computer-controlled injector containing a precision-machined nozzle and a plunger driven by a solenoid or piezoelectric actuator.

Omul macar este pe subiect si vine cu niste argumente, tu te uiti ca mata-n calendar.

Dar asa sunt bizonii, cand le este depasita inteligenta incep sa jigneasca.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

se poate schimba titlul threadului... aici e vorba de 2 masini in comparatie...nu de sistemele lor de injectie

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

pai parca e 2.0 tdi...nu e cam mult cat zici...350cp?Nu prea am auzit de diesel de peste 120cp pe litru, doar poate daca investesti enorm.Sau vroiai sa zici ca "vorba vine"?
Octavia are avantajul pretului dar si dezavantajul fwd-ului (parca e fwd, daca tin minte), plus un sasiu nu de nivelul BMW-ului.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Eu am 115 cp/L si stiu masina cu 160cp/L cu motor identic.
2.0TDI 140cp.
Deci vorba aia nu mai vine :D

Si sasiul ala minunat al BMW-ului vine probabil cu suspensia din pachetul M.
Altfel este doar un diesel de familie fara mari valente sportive.
RS-tdi vine cu aceeasi suspensie a unui Golf V GTI, scaune profilate, exterior cu un look mai sportiv decat Octavia de serie.
La bani mai putini primesti mai mult spatiu+tot ce am scris mai sus+un portbagaj mai mare.
Merita sa dai diferenta de bani pentru RWD si o sigla alb-albastra????
Probabil toti copii se vor excita acum ca am zis RWD si vor visa urs,m3,supra,skyline.
Un om care ajunge in ipostaza de a cumpara masina cred ca va face mai multe calcule.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Vezi ca ai incurcat, problemele sunt invers proportionale cu ai scris tu. CR se strica daca bagi motorina autohtona nu PD-ul !

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

pai cred ac vb. de acelasi lucru, eu zic ca nu se strica c r cu motorina de la pompa doar daca ai ghinion de pompa unde isi permite alimentatorul (cu cisterna) sa inmoaie motorina sau cumperi de la statii anonime sau camionagii.
Altfel sunt foarte multe c r care au peste 200 mii de km si nu au avut probleme cu pompa.
Se stie ca sunt motoare c r mai putin reusite sau mai pretentioase dar sa nu generalizam.
Daca ne uitam bine in afara de VAG si Land Rover nimeni nu mai foloseste altceva decat c r si nu prea am auzit sa fie asa multe probleme cum comenteaza unii, mai curand cad debitmetre si IGR-uri decat pompele c r.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

omiteti o chestie f importanta: bmw are suspensie cu dubla bascula pe fata si multi-link pe spate. octavia are mc-pherson si pe spate cu dubla bascula.

cat despre PD vs CR. va demonstrez ca un passat 1.9 de 130 cai face un passat / A4 cu 2.0 140 cp CR, desi e mai greu si are handicap de 10 cp. sa nu mai mentionez ca ala cu PD are 8v si ala CR 16v. e foarte important in mentinearea cuplului la turatii mici, e mai fiabil si nu in ultimu rand e cam foarte aiurea sa pui 16 pe un motor de turatii mici.

LE: pentru un diesel la 200 000 km abia a ajuns la maturitate. pe la 500 se vede o diferenta de fiabilitate.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Chiar si daca alimentezi din OMV/Rompetrol/Petrom poti avea ghinionul sa aibe mizerii/apa etc. Intradevar ai dreptate cu IGR-ul, insa nu este o piese extrem de scumpa ( 150 ron )... Am mers cu Passat CC 2.0TDI 140cp CR si vreau sa-ti zic ca aveam impresia ca are 75 cai si ca ar fi aspirat nu turbo, pe cand PD-ul te lipeste de scaun.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

cam ce presiune are ala de 160cp/l la turbo si cam ce modificari are?Un TDI de 170cp la 2 litri din cate stiu are cam 2.2bar.Ca presupun ca deja trebuie sa schimbi multe in el pentru asta (arbore cotit, ax cu came, cursa-alezaj...).Asta pentru ca la un diesel nu prea poti creste turatia, si atunci pentru crestere de putere trebuie sa maresti cuplul ( foarte mult, pentru o asemenea crestere de putere).Presupun ca pentru 320cp la 2 litri trebuiesc cam 650-700Nm, poate mai mult.

Intreb ca as fi curios cam ce a facut omul la masina.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Un tdi de 170cp la 2 litri adica asta din topic are cam 1.4 sau 1.5bar presiune in admisie.
Eu merg cu 1.8 pentru 230cp.
Ala cu 160cp/l are schimbate doar biele (forjate),si portat chiuloasa.
Merge cu un turbo hibrid si scoate 245cp doar pe diesel si 320cp cu nos si injectie de propan.
Propanul este necesar deoarece injectoarele cu debit marit pentru acest tip de motor au fost scoase de foarte putin timp si era nevoie de combustibil.Merge la 2.1Bar.
Ca fapt divers exista un 1.9tdi cu 3.2bar in admisie :D

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

am vazut golfu 4 tdi1.9 stock 110 cp dupa 190 cp la promotor si zicea ca a schimbat si turbina avea una de 2.5

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Pai turbina mare este un must have la tdi-uri pentru putere.
Carutasu intrebase de componente interne cu siguranta.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

eu am un rs tdi si va spun ca nu consuma ulei de genul 5-600 g si merg destul de sportiv cu ea.consum de ulei este normal sa ai ca se pierde prin ardere nu?acea pelicula de pe cilindru.un rs costa cam 27000 si are de toate si trapa electrica la banii astia,un bmw nu are aceleasi dotari.frinele rs discuri fata 312 bmw nu stiu daca are 312,rs are suspensie sport,bmw nu la standard,costuri de intretinere mai mari la bmw(tarife de service),iar ca performante masina fuge de rupe ,eu am mers cu ea pe a2 cu 225 arata bordul(seatul cu motor de 170 are performante mai slabe)scriptic,am si o skoda 2,0 tdi 140 modificata la 170 si este mai brutala ,rs este mai rapid si pune puterea mai lin nu te smuceste,turbina este alta fata de 140 cp si cred ca si cutia . iar ca spatiu bmw imi pare mai mic cel putin in spate fata de rs,porbagajul la rs este cred cel mai mare din gama 560L.eu sunt foarte multumit de ea si apropo nu scoate pic de fum megru si am cam 11.000 km.sa ma intelegeti si mie imi place bmw dar pret achizitie si intretinere mai mare de noua masia,iar ca sh nu merita ,una noua rs sau sh bmw.
salutare.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

daca nu te cam "stregi la fund cu banii" e logic sa iei octavia rs daca vrei sport, daca vrei confort iti iei bmw.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Daca vrei comfort,sport si rafinament iti cumperi BMW ...

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

http://www.zeperfs.com/en/duel2674-1869.htm
Asta spune destul de multe

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Nu cred ca datele postate de tine sunt adevarate.Uite ce am gasit pe carfolio.Pana si 320d cel de 163 cai atinge 225km/h.
http://www.carfolio.com/specificatio...ar/?car=180191

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Mie mi se pare amuzant ca VAG au un motor pe o masina sport in speta RS mai slab decat BMW pe o masina obisnuita, de familie :)

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Nu e amuzant. E putin trist pentru Skoda ca cele mai performante motoare sunt cele care sunt. Motoarele mai puternice nu se pun pentru ca ar scadea cota de piata pentru VW.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Si aici e comparat cu skoda modelu nou :D
Mi se par destul de mari diferentele de consum pt aceeasi capacitate...

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Subscriu, si doar 55l capacitate rezervor Skoda?

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Acum capacitatea e relativa,poate s`au gandit ca la cat consuma e destul,sau cine stie.
oricum,surprinzator de performante ultimele generatii de motoare diesel de la bmw.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Cred ca este putin 55l rezervor deoarece la Passat 2.0 TDI rezervorul este de 70l... Oricum consumul ala de oras de 7.7 la RS este in conditii ideale de trafic. Mie imi consuma 8-8.5% mers combinat, si la BMW am retineri in privinta consumului fata de cel dat de producator.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Probabil ca nu chiar 6 fix,dar am un prieten cu 320d e92 cel de 177 cai si a scos in oras 6.6,acu depinde de multi factori si astea,stii tu :P

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

N-au nici o treaba, skoda octavia e pe platforma de golf.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

Eu am 320xD, 177 de cai. Dupa 17 500 de km am un consum mixt de 6,6. In privinta vitezei maxime nu pot spune prea multe pentru ca eu am mers doar cu 215 km/h (atat imi indica GPS-ul, pe bord aveam 230), dar mai avea pedala - probabil ca e undeva la 225-230.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

As alege BMW-ul fara sa stau pe ganduri. Motorul este mai sportiv, mai economic, mai modern. Sa nu mai vb de sasiul BMW care este de nota 10 - 50-50 weight distribution, Efficient Dynamics (consum 6 urban), 0-100 7.9sec/230km/h Vmax ... etc.
Sa mai adaugam aici distributia pe lant de la BMW, garantia de 5ani, pretul de revanzare.

Cum spunea cineva mai inainte, Skoda are pe varianta "sport" motor mai slab ca BMW-ul pe varianta standard. Ca si design iarasi BMW-ul sta in fata.

Singurele atuuri ale Skodei ar fi volumul mai mare de incarcare in spate (hatchback) si pretul mai mic, in rest BMW all the way.

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

cu siguranta as alege BMW...deoarece nu e atat de scump ca intretinere cum cred altii...si in plus...bavarezii au facut numai masinii de"fuga"

Re: BMW 320D 177 cp vs. Skoda Octavia RS TDI
 

As opta pentru BMW, un 325d cu M-Pack arata foarte si merge foarte bine. :D